Divine Judgment?
Posted by Todd Rhoades in Controversy on Jun 27th, 2011 | 17 commentsJohn MacArthur says that America’s sins are akin to that of Israel’s and the nation was under divine judgment.
“As somebody said a few years ago, if God doesn’t destroy America pretty soon, He’s gonna have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.â€
According to the Christian Post:
The head pastor of Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, Calif., MacArthur identified Israel’s six sins leading to six curses on that nation from Isaiah 5, saying those misdeeds were not isolated to Israel.
“I look at America… people say what is wrong with this country. That is what’s wrong with this country. Right there. They have rejected the Word, the law of the Lord, the Holy One Himself.â€
Talking about the sin of arrogant conceit, he said America was guilty, too. It is “when a society does not want to hear from God, but wants to be its own authority where every man does that which is right in his own eyes and feels that he is the ultimate authority, he is the ultimate source of truth,†he explained.
MacArthur added that America had corrupt leaders, too. The Hebrew words for “heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks,†as mentioned in Isaiah 5:22, referred to leaders, he said. “What do we have here? We have here, folks, Anthony Weiner type people…corrupt leaders. Is there ever any end to this corruption…who literally prostitute their position and justify wicked people for a bribe and take away the rights of the innocent people…politicians and leaders who can be bought.â€
What do YOU think? Â Is America under divine judgment? Â Will God have to apologize if he doesn’t destroy us soon?
I’d love to hear your thoughts… Please take a sec to pop your comment below…
Todd
17 Responses to “ “Divine Judgment?”
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So… we’re worse now than…
…when we decided to kill the people who lived here and stole their land… and broke every single treaty we made with them?
…when we decided it was a good idea to steal people from their homeland, enslave them, and use them to build up this country into what it is today?
Uh… yeah…
For crying out loud, Peter… don’t go all historical on us.
I understand what Pastor MacArthur is saying, but to declare that God would have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah is, while sarcastic, still inappropriate.
He’s not wrong on about the sinful nature of America, however. America’s sins are similar to all the “great” empires of the world and you can plainly see that they are not around anymore. The proud typically find themselves humiliated at some point.
All of that said, I will pray for grace and mercy. I see America’s destruction being an economic one and the suffering that will come out of it will be unbearable for many. If you really believe America is going to meet her destruction soon, I would just ask that they take a posture like Jeremiah’s.
I’ve said something like that myself, and it “feels” right (although I say ‘judge’ instead of ‘destroy’). We love to quote 2 Chron. 7:14, but the context from v.13 gives us a warning: 2Chr 7:13 When I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or command the locust to devour the land, or send pestilence among my people, 2Chr 7:14 if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.
Our nation is digging deeper and deeper into the hole of pending judgment, and when it comes those of us who are called by the Name may yet be God’s instrument of redemption for the nation.
Does God deal with the nation of America the same way he dealt with the nation of Israel in the OT? Maybe. Maybe not. Once again, MacArthur comes off as a grumpy old man rather than someone who loves God and loves people and is praying for their salvation. I don’t recall Jesus railing on the wicked culture he was born into. He did however challenge the “spiritual” people of the day.
What happened to “Grace to You”!
Jesus did rail against the wicked culture He was in…He denounced entire cities…(and not just the scribes and Pharisees),”Woe unto you Bethsaida…Capernaum…for if Sodom had seen the miracles you’ve seen it would have survived to this day…”
However, MacArthur gets on seriously dangerous ground when, like Leonard Ravenhill, he says, “If God doesnt’ destroy America, He’ll have to apologize to Sodom…”
God does not apologize to anyone. He has no need to. And God cannot be manipulated into judging or saving anyone.
Yes, America deserves God’s wrath. But so does post-Christian, post-Reformation Europe. The worst thing God could do to America would be to simply leave us alone. Kind of seems like this is what He has done to Europe.
Why is it that many Christian leaders in America grow more and more mean, judgmental and angry with age? You would think that people who have spent years and years walking with Jesus would be different – less mean, less condemning, less critical… more and more patience, kindness, loving and serving. It’s like the man has never traveled and seen what real depravity brings to many countries and peoples of the world. If God was in the wrath business, we’d be about 75th back in line.
Tye echoes my thoughts. MacArthur has his Biblical history confused. America is not the “chosen” nation, never was, as Israel was. If God didn’t destroy the Ottomans and Nazis, and even the crusaders and inquisitors, why should we think he would bother with Americans. I don’t personally know the man, but it sounds to me like another example of theological and religious arrogance and willful ignorance. I find these kinds of Christian orators very troubling.
I agree with Johnnie Mac on this one. I don’t see too many new church starts affirming Adultery, Lying, Murder, etc. as their foundational principle. Nor are these folks asking me to affirm their particular sinful choice nor are they asking society to accept their sin as normative. So I see a big difference in the homosexual agenda as it regards church/christianity.
“I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” Luke 13:3 These words of Jesus sound pretty condemnatory to me. Somehow we all love to worship the baby in the manger and the Jesus who came in love to call the world to repentance in the Gospels but we forget about the Jesus of Revelation who is coming during the day of the Lord to destroy His enemies and restore Israel. We are getting very close to the end of the age when the message will once again be preached to repent or be destroyed. Jesus frequently condemned entire cities as well as the entire nation of Israel for its sin. John MacArthur is simply warning the world of impending judgment. I don’t see this as unloving but on the contrary as loving to warn the lost to repent. Repentance is a necessary part of salvation but one that has been removed from most gospel messages today and from most pulpits. Without repentance no one will be saved. Too many pastors today and sitting around holding hands singing Kumbaya while America like Rome burns.
I can name you ten righteous people pretty easily. If John can’t maybe he should join another church.
God’s judgement is not always floods and fire. The worse judgement God could give to America is for him to allow us to be given over to our godless and depraved desires. Remember, we the church are the salt, it is our job to continue to preserve and add wholesome flavor to our culture.
I’m with Robby and Pastor Randy on this one. God has judged the nations in the past. He judged the Assyrians by using the conquering armies of the Medes, Babylonians, and others in 612 BC.
Is it possible? Some here sound pretty certain God is not judging America. Does He judge individuals only? How about when individuals join themselves together for a common purpose?
Does God really judge anyone for anything or are disasters just “the way things are”?
I think that MacArthur has made a theological error. I was in Dr. Douglas Stuart’s “Exegesis in the Historical Books” at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary and I typed into my notes: “Israel-modern nation Confusion: Assuming that things that apply to biblical Israel also apply to modern nations.” God’s promises, blessings, curses, and judgments cannot be indiscriminately applied to America or to any other modern nation.
This misunderstanding is both common and understandable. As we read the Old Testament we witness God operating regularly on a “national level.” This is for two major reasons. First, Israel was a “theocratic” nation. Israel possessed a special status as a nation that no other political or geographic nation before or since has ever possessed – it literally was “God’s Nation.” The theocratic nation of Israel was unique – it never has been and never will be duplicated (as such, America is not “God’s Nation” nor is it a “Christian Nation” but rather “a nation with Christians in it” – but that is for another time).
Secondly, we recognize that in ancient times, nations were far more homogeneous than they are today. At one time, the metaphor used of America was that of the “melting pot.” However America is no longer a melting pot but more like a “salad bowl” – very different and distinct ingredients all occupying the same bowl. Less and less do we observe acculturation (the melting pot), but instead different cultures, peoples, beliefs, and practices now live next door to one another. Thus this generation’s buzz word is “tolerance;” for we must learn to live together within this diverse salad.
So with the theocratic nation of Israel no more and political/geographic nations no longer homogeneous cultures, beliefs, practices, and people groups – we no longer witness God’s promises, blessings, curses, and judgments applied on a political/geographic “national” level in the same way we witness within the Old Testament.
I agree that “nationally” we have violated God’s will because every one of us personally has done so (Is. 53:6; Rom. 3:10-18,23). However, has not every other nation done the same? How does the U.S. stack up against the U.K., Germany, Canada, or Afghanistan? Should we be judged more harshly than China with its human rights violations? Should we be punished more severely or immediately than Iraq, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, or Rwanda for their atrocities? And don’t we deserve a reprieve for our humanitarian efforts and other national “good works”? (of course we don’t, but just follow the logic…)
On June 5, 1973 Canadian radio commentator Gordon Sinclair made a broadcast titled, “The Americans.” Early on in his broadcast, Sinclair emphatically argues, “this Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least-appreciated people in all the earth.” His broadcast goes on to list time after time at which America came to the aid of those in need while never experiencing reciprocal kindness or often even gratitude. In his final conclusions, he writes, “I can name to you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble?”
But I agree we ALL stand deserving of judgment unless we stand in Jesus Christ in whom there is no condemnation (Romans 8:1). And one day, at the final trumpet, that judgment will come upon every man, woman, child, of every tribe, tongue, and nation. However I believe MacArthur (just as Falwell and Robertson and others) often speed up that day of judgment.
Humanly we forget that the LORD is patient, not wanting anyone to perish but all to come to repentance (2Peter 3:9; Ezekiel 18:23). In Jesus’ day, when others saw “God’s judgment” in a local tragedy, Jesus sternly warned them not to assume this was a judgment, BUT that one day there WILL BE a judgment so REPENT NOW (Luke 13:1-5). God will not bring a “national judgment” now – such as MacArthur warns of – because in Jesus’ parable of the weeds (Matthew 13:24-30) the farmer [God] tells the harvesters not to pull up [for judgment] the weeds prematurely because, “while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn” (vv. 29-30).
Make no mistake, there will be a judgment on all at the end of time but I think MacArthur’s scope (nationally) and timetable (immediately) are theologically lacking.
So Adam, does God really judge anyone for anything or are disasters just “the way things are�
I’m not trying to be contentious but wasn’t the judgment on Sodom & Gomorrah, Nineveh and Babylon separate from Israel as a theocracy? Especially Nineveh since her judgment seems to have nothing to do with Israel and her form of government. According to Nahum 3 their offenses are more a violation of some pre-existing divine requirements or natural law (lies, plunder, war casualties, witchcraft).
Also, when/if God judges a nation, do you think we might see levels of judgment? Certain Canaanite cities were subject to the herem while others were not.
I think we miss the point when this becomes the focus. When we read the Bible and pray on a daily basis, we know as Christians what God wants and desires for our lives. The Bible is very clear on how we as individuals should be living out our faith. We cannot expect the same behavior from people who do not know God. We can (and should) pray that God will help us be a light in this world and that He will draw people to Him. We can pray for our country and the leaders and we can speak the truth in love. But if our focus becomes one of judgement and worrying about what other people are doing we’ve just fallen in a trap of not focusing on God and our relationship with Him. I also want to remind that in each of the cases of judgement in the Old Testament, God always warned those people. The New Testament warns us of a final judgement.