Osteen: Mormons ARE Christians
Posted by Todd Rhoades in Controversy on Oct 27th, 2011 | 68 commentsQuote from Joel Osteen in the Washington Times:
“I believe that [Mormons] are Christians,” Mr. Osteen said. “I don’t know if it’s the purest form of Christianity, like I grew up with. But you know what, I know Mormons. I hear Mitt Romney — and I’ve never met him — but I hear him say, ‘I believe Jesus is the son of God,’ ‘I believe he’s my savior,’ and that’s one of the core issues.
“I’m sure there are other issues that we don’t agree on. But you know, I can say that the Baptists and the Methodists and the Catholics don’t all agree on everything. So that would be my take on it.”
Agree or disagree?
Todd
68 Responses to “ “Osteen: Mormons ARE Christians”
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coming from a man who doesn’t want the cross in his sancutary because it is a stumbling block!!
I disagree with him on Mormonism being a Christian faith.
But to feel we have to have a cross on our buildings, or awe inspiring steeples to show the world we’re believers is a stretch. If our lives and ministries don’t reveal Christ the cross on our building or on the necklace around our neck surely want.
Somehow I’m not surprised. Just when I thought I couldn’t lose more respect for him.
I’m not either. But then again, he is who is he is, so no surprise.
I would like Todd to quit posting stuff around this issue. Two times in 2 days on this issue? Regardless of how you feel about Mitt Romney, I think it’s disrespectful for Christians to stir the pot around someone’s political ambitions and their faith. Maybe it’s good for blog stats but it’s a sad witness to non-believers.
I’d say that it would be wrong for commenters on blogs to accuse blog writers of just writing for blog stats, but that would probably be disrespectful and stirring the pot too.
I do want people to read my blog. No surprise there.
But I also write about things I find interesting. This is one of those things. It’s ok not to agree.
That said, Andrew… it’s in the news… one survey and one comment make two posts. Sorry you didn’t like the content.
Todd
I know my comment might stir the pot with you but I’m sure other readers here (who usually enjoy your stuff which is why we follow your blog and follow you on Twitter) would prefer not to see you kind of do (indirectly) what the main stream media is doing. Right now the MSM is going after Romney on the faith issue because they have little else and he is the biggest threat to Obama. Like other readers here and comments I’ve read here, I don’t think his faith should have anything to do with his abilities to perform the job of POTUS. And I do think it’s bigotry to use someone’s faith as a criteria for whether they’re qualified or not. And I’m not saying you are, but when stories like these keep getting propagated around the web, the “faith” issue starts to become “criteria” and that’s just messed up.
I think we should look at the man’s character. Mormons, as a people group, are some of the best people to be around, great family people, hard-working, trustworthy etc… THAT’S what should be noticed. Obama’s a “Christian” but hardly acts like in regards to his legislation.
Anyway… enough about that.
Boy, you have completely misread me, Andrew if you think that I’ve posted anything about mormons to dis Mitt Romney.
And to say that I’m siding with the main-stream media here is really out there to me.
Anyone else agree with Andrew?
When LifeWay does a survey on the subject and Joel Osteen makes a comment on the subject, it seems fair game more than propoganda.
We can agree to disagree, I guess. But do you other readers share Andrew’s concerns?
Just want to be sure I don’t have my head in the sand (or anywhere else for that matter).
Todd
Andrew, I think this is more about Joel than Mitt. And it is news, and it is important. Mormonism is not Christianity, and when public figure like Joel says it is, that’s extremely significant.
Mormons are Christians and if you you feel the need to say they are not then you are an ignorant bigot.
Perhaps you would prefer seperate bathrooms and drinking fountains for those mormons as well?
Mark, instead of name-calling, perhaps you should study Mormonism.
For example, its founder, Joseph Smith, claimed to have been visited by God the Father and Jesus Christ his (biological) Son. When he asked which church he should join, this was the reply” “I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt…” (Joseph Smith—History 1:19)
Here are some other quotes from LDS leadership – all of which YOU could look up for yourself, if you wished:
“Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity.” (Brigham Young, July 8, 1863, Journal of Discourses, 10:230).
“What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing…Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest of fools…” (John Taylor, May 6, 1870, Journal of Discourses 13:225)
“I do not wish to say anything in relation to other forms of religion; I do not know that it is necessary that I should do so; but no thinking man can admit that Christianity so-called—I call it a false Christianity, untrue to its name—satisfies the wants of humanity at the present time.” (George Q. Cannon, July 15, 1883, Journal of Discourses 24:185)
You see, Mark, it is the LDS religion ITSELF that from its origin claimed they were the only ‘true’ Christian faith. Isn’t that the very definition of bigotry?
Are you not aware that it was not until the latter part of the 20th century that the Mormon church reversed its position, marketing itself as just one of many Christian denominations? They’ve not changed their theology one bit, just their PR.
I’m not ignorant, Mark, I’m well informed. I would appreciate your reply.
Sigh. And yet, though the current president has a very orthodox testimony of confessing Jesus as his savior, you diss him with quotation marks. I find this appalling among believers. Because some dislike his policies (and abortion-choice is still a POLICY), they are comfortable questioning his faith and saying his life bears no fruit. Even though he is faithful in his marriage, an attentive father to his children and a man who takes seriously caring for the poor and pursuing peace. Even if they don’t like the policy choices he makes in those arenas, that’s not the same thing as bearing no fruit. (I’m ranting at more than you here, Andrew – I know you didn’t say those things. at least, not here). I don’t think Jesus is pleased with that kind of dismissing someone at all. so yes, let’s be fair to Romney, but let’s also be fair to Obama.
Sue -
You make some valid points. I put “Christian” in quotes to emphasis how Obama is a Christian, NOT a Mormon yet you wouldn’t know it by the policies he puts forward. Since I don’t know him outside of his legislation, I wouldn’t comment on his personal life or what kind of Dad he is or whatever. I think he’s probably a pretty nice guy. With that said, Romney is being attacked solely on his personal life (in regards to topic at hand, sure Romneycare wasn’t good but that’s another discussion).
I do think that our faith should be evident by how we live, etc. And for politicians, it should be evident in the legislation they put forward. Viewing things from the outside, it’s very clear to me that I am more like Romney than I am Obama even though Obama and I share the same faith. How any Christian could vote for against the Born-Alive Infant Protection Act (if a baby survive an abortion the doctor is required by law to do everything they can to help that baby stay alive) is simply beyond me and is really the one main thing that has me personally wondering if he’s indeed a Christian or a Christian in name only (like thousands and thousands of Christians who, when asked, would say they are Christians, but don’t go to church, read the Bible, etc etc…). But… that’s between Obama and God, not me.
Bearing fruit? I don’t know… Are people being saved because of him? Are people coming together to discuss faith issues? Are lost people more open to the Gospel than before? I don’t know… God does. Ain’t my job to say. Regarding his faith, I do think it’s interesting (for a lack of a better word) that he went to Rev Jeremiah Wrights church for 20+ years listening to anti-American, and anti-White rhetoric from the pulpit. It’d be hard for me to believe that not a little of that sunk in. But again, I don’t know. So, I take him at his Word. It’s not me he needs to worry about anyway, the Lord is his God, not me.
“he went to Rev Jeremiah Wrights church for 20+ years listening to anti-American, and anti-White rhetoric from the pulpit.”
You have no way of knowing how many times in 20 years Obama heard Jeremiah Wright–nor do you know what Jeremiah Wright preached on for 20+ years. Obama separated himself from Jeremiah Wright…that key fact was missing from your version of the truth. A president can no more abolish abortion on his own–Republican or Democrat–than a man in the moon. Just ask President Bush (assuming he tried).
For the record, and as a Christian, one-issue voters disgust me.
As for Joel Osteen, if Mormons are Christians, then Jehovah’s Witnesses are Christians, and every other cult you can name. I would suggest a probing study of Mormonism for Mr. Osteen.
“My version of the truth”? It’s not my version.. it all came out during the election.. the pastor was his spiritual mentor and went on to say that Obama abandoned him when things got tough in the election, etc… My version? I don’t think so.
And true, a Pres can’t abolish abortion but can certainly speak out against it. And put forth legislation to let it get voted on. Obama did indeed speak out… but he was for it, his voting record is public record.
“one issue voters disgust me”
That’s fine. I’m assuming you’re talking about me based on my abortion comment concerning Obama being for abortion at any level. I’m sorry I “disgust” you. How very “Christian” of you to say that about me. So much for brotherly love.
(FYI.. Rev Wright had nothing to do with my comment on abortion, so there’s 2 issues since you’re counting.)
1) Osteen tanked this one. File this under the what was he thinking tab.
2) A persons faith does matter to his politics. Call me what you want, but I think we can see that in our last three Commanders in Chief. You can also see that literally throughout the world. Let’s not pretend it doesn’t matter because as American we are more noble.
3)Andrew, I don’t mind the 2 times in a week.
“Andrew if you think that I’ve posted anything about mormons to dis Mitt Romney.”
Maybe so… it just appears to me (and maybe I’m sensitive to it because it really drives me nuts when Christians sometimes are critical of others beliefs in a way that the other person can’t defend themselves) when posting stories about Romney or Mormonism and then saying “are they Christians”, while interesting, it indirectly is bringing a negative view of Romney (by association). Christians, people, etc generally think of “cult” in a very negative way (and rightly so) and bringing up these stories (whether in the news or not) only brings to the surface those gut reactions about these type things. Anyway, maybe it was completely accidental and I’m being too sensitive about it. That could be true. After the last election and all the crap around Romney’s mormonism and Huckabee’s role in all of that, it drives me nuts when it keeps getting brought up, as if it’s relevant to his abilities.
Leonard: “Let’s not pretend it doesn’t matter because as American we are more noble.”
I think it’s bigotry, you don’t. I would venture to guess that you’d vet every general or commander in the military on whether they’re Christians or not to see if they’re capable of doing their job? Were our founding fathers all Christians? I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this issue.
Keith:
Maybe… Well, I think it only truly matters only to his congregation. There’s so many things I don’t like about Joel Osteen that I don’t pay him attention. It’s certainly news fodder for the MSM since they want to associate Romney with any controversial person.
Andrew, your guess would be wrong. To share a differing opinion over the theology of a religion and then to have an opinion of that is not bigotry. Last I checked, I get to do that. To treat Romney as less, to belittle him, to act in a way that demeans him because he is Mormon, that would be bigotry. To not want him to be president? Not bigotry.
There would be a world wide impact if we had a Mormon president, it would accelerate the expansion of Mormonism. I don’t want that. Not bigotry.
Not trying to pick at you, but you kind of jump to conclusions for people here.
I think a Christian will have a hard being Potus the rest of the way home anyway. So be it.
“Not trying to pick at you, but you kind of jump to conclusions for people here.”
You made the comment:
“Let’s not pretend it doesn’t matter because as American we are more noble. ”
Referring to whether Romney’s faith (Mormonism) relates to his ability to be POTUS. Unless I’m missing something…
I can certainly respect your desire not to have a POTUS that is a Mormon but it seems to me (again, this is just my 2 cents), if that criteria is the only criteria for him not being POTUS, then that’s where I’d draw the line as bigotry. Our founding fathers were not all Christians and gave us freedom of religion for this very purpose, that one of any faith could be President.
With that said, I’m not a fan of Mormonism and I disagree a lot with some of what they believe in. I just don’t think it’s relevant in this campaign cycle, and making it relevant, to me anyway, seems out of line.
But I’m human and if I’m jumping to conclusions, I can certainly use the correction.
Andrew, read the comment in context and you will see that what I said was a persons faith matters to their politics. I cited our last three presidents not Romney.
I don’t think that I said this was the only issue. His stance on healthcare, immigration and taxes also bother me. His faith is a big factor, but not the only factor.
Have a great day and thanks for engaging here, I appreciate the dialog.
Todd posts various subjects that are relevant to Christianity. If he picks up something in the news and posts it, he’s just passing stuff along to his readers. Sometimes there’s a lot of talk about Rob Bell, or Catalyst, or The Crystal Cathedral or Pat Robertson. It is what it is. There are other articles to click on if you don’t like it.
If non-believers visit this blog, cool. They will see all sorts of topics. There are over a dozen on the main page, and 2 are about Mormons. Big deal.
“I don’t know if it’s the purest form of Christianity, like I grew up with.”
Disregard his perspective of Mormons, that right there is a problem for me.
Joel Osteen gives further proof of either his theological ignorance or his lack of theological integrity.
1. Mormonism matches all 4 tests of a cult (http://ow.ly/7aSdC).
2. Mormons do not believe that Jesus Christ is God’s Son — they believe he is an incarnate angel.
3. They do not believe in salvation by grace — they must work and keep certain commandments (like their “word of wisdom” in order become gods themselves to one day rule over their own planets. Brigham Young articulated this when he said, “As man is, God once was. As God is, man will become.”
4. They do not believe in asking forgiveness of sins — “repentance” is a church ritual involving washings, but they have no concept of biblical repentance.
5. They acknowledge the Bible but say there are 5 more infallible books that they believe (http://ow.ly/7aS4r) more than the Bible.
Now, honestly, I will vote for a crumpled-up Coke can on the side of the highway before I would vote for Obama. However, it causes me grief that a man running for President — a job that requires the most keen judgment and discernment — believes in a faith that until 1958 taught that the moon was populated with a race of men who were 9 feet tall and dressed like Quakers. (Yes, that is what the Mormon church taught — just check your history.) Is a man that lacking in discernment someone we want with his finger on the “football” able to launch us into war?
We should all pray now that God will grant us someone with integrity as a presidential candidate who can win. Let us pray that this man — whoever he will be — will have true discernment and the ability to make sound judgments. My personal opinion is that neither Obama nor Romney qualify in this regard. But that is just my opinion and needs no rebuttal. My primary concern in this blog is that a well-known author and “preacher” cares so little about the truth.
On another note, I would defend to the death Romney’s right to run for President and for others to vote for him.
1. So does Christianity as Jesus established it.
2. False. Latter-day Saints believe everything the Bible teaches about Jesus, that he is the only begotten Son of God. The Book of Mormon identifies Jesus as the Son of God and Savior of the World. Every prophet from Joseph Smith to the present has borne testimony of Christ as the Son of God.
3. False. Latter-day Saints believe that salvation comes only through the grace of Christ. The New Testament teaches that we are required to have faith in him, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, and keep the commandments. However, none of those, by themselves, can save anybody. Only the Atonement of Christ and his grace can do that. There is no support in any authorized or recognized doctrinal source for the idea of ruling over one’s own planet. The Journal of Discourses has no authority to establish LDS doctrine. No one studies it in the Church, no one uses it as a source of doctrine, no one quotes from it in official statements or General Conference. The Journal of Discourses is irrelevant to LDS doctrine, thought, and practice.
4. Utterly false. Just about every prayer I as a Latter-day Saint have ever uttered includes asking for forgiveness of sins. Only God can forgive sins. I have no idea where you got the “washings” idea as far as repentance is concerned, except perhaps from your diseased imagination.
5. Latter-day Saints accept the Bible as the Word of God without reservation. We spend two years of every four in Sunday School studying the Bible. It is quoted extensively in all areas of the Church and is holy scripture to us. All the books in our canon, none of which we consider to be infallible because they all have imperfections, are of equal importance and authority to Latter-day Saints.
The Church has never taught as official doctrine anything about moon inhabitants, regardless of the opinions early leaders may have expressed.
What we should all pray for is that bigots like you who live in some bizarre alternative universe should be ignored.
I have been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for more than 50 years. I served as a full-time missionary and as the leader (bishop) of a local congregation. I know exactly what I’m talking about. You, on the other hand, don’t.
Mr. Reyes…I was interested to read your response as one of the Morman faith. I’ve found it hard to believe that there are no Christians among you. I believe God looks on the heart of each one of us as individuals. The Bible says, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. You and your house.” It also says that no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit. We cannot judge what is in another’s heart.
Thanks and God Bless.
Really, Chris? Check this out, “We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Need more details goto http://www.mormon.org
My first time on a blog. All of the comments are interesting, very few seem objective. But I guess that what blogs are, just personal opinions for the most part based on personal experiences. To eichendorff, wonder what part of the country you are in (don’t want an answer, just wonder), because all of the things you say are false, I was told by a mormon. Guess everyone has their own interpretaions of teachings and/or not everyone gets the same or correct teaching. I know no one likes to have the “race card” brought up in anything, but actually heaven seems to be a scary place. I’ve lived through a lot of presidents, none of them perfect, but it truly seems that Obama’s race is what bothers people about him. I thought Christians were supposed to pray for their leadership and trust God to hear those collective prayers and keep His hand in everything, turning mistakes into something He would use. I thought that Obama was in his time and place, a precursor to the appearance of the antichrist, i.e. things we thought we’d never see, happening in this country. Anyway, why is heaven scary? Well, are there separate heavens? One for whites who do not respect or wish to be around anyone who is not like them? And one for all of the other races who feel the same way? THE bible teaches us that we are all children of God, that if you don’t follow those words, you are not a believer, thus being subject to the conseqences of those non-beliefs. I would prefer to have a Christian as the leader of this country. Doesn’t matter the color, as long as he or she is not a lukewarm Christian. God will ultimately judge that person of course, but on this side of heaven, I can have my preferences. I do not want a leader who considers me or anyone else a second class citizen, does not respect what is on the inside, etc. I will stop here. As I said, not accustomed to blogs. Feel like I’m just rambling.
One of the things that makes it so difficult to actually learn anything is that there is so much misinformation out there. Of Robert’s points which attempt to describe doctrines of the LDS Church, exactly none of them are correct.
You said: “Now, honestly, I will vote for a crumpled-up Coke can on the side of the highway before I would vote for Obama.”
There go your credentials. Any many who would vote for an aluminum can needs help.
Dr. John M. Reiner, a known Roman Catholic scholar and faculty member of Villanova University who had nearly a dozen languages at his command and seemed to know a great deal about law, literature, history, and science, visited Salt lake City in January 1898.
One day he told Elder Orson R. Whitney of the Quorum of the Twelve: “You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don’t even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other position tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Roman Catholic Church.”
“The issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, you are wrong; if you are right, we are wrong; and that’s all there is to it. The Protestant sects haven’t a leg to stand on; for if we are right, we cut them off long ago as apostates; and if we are wrong, they are wrong with us, since they were a part of us and went out from us.”
“If we have the APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION from St. Peter, as we claim, there is no need of Joseph Smith and Mormonism; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism’s attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the gospel in latter days.”
As a former Catholic, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS) is the most fundamental christian religion based on the King James bible. If you need to learn more, visit http://www.MORMON.org
Note: Dr. Reiner was a member of Association of Catholic Colleges in the United States and regularly lectures at their annual meetings.
Do what? The LDS is not based on the King James Bible. It’s based on a fictitious book that Joseph Smith supposedly “found” but “destroyed” so no one else can substantiate his claims. Besides – what does the King James have to do with it?
Fundamentals and characters of the original Church of Jesus Christ was built by Christ himself and led by Apostle Peter after his ascension into heaven. Christ set up his own church with apostles in the old world & I just don’t think he will change it for our time. Remember Alan, there are 12 tribes of Israel….all are commanded by Christ to write their own bibles to testify that Jesus is the Christ and Savior of the world. All of these books will support the bible as noted by Apostle Paul to the Corinthians, “This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.”
Where does Christ command the 12 tribes of Israel to all write their own Bibles? I’ve never heard anything like that before. Where in the Bible do we have that recorded? Also, not sure where the quote from Paul comes into play.
Apostle John described it perfectly just before Christ ascended into the heavens, “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” Unfortunately, not all people live in the old world. A loving Christ will bring his gospel to all people even more after his ascension.
The Osteen posture is no surprise. He is among a growing number of “christian” leaders who embrace the new tolerance – if you have strong beliefs it is best to state them vaguely AND if you have vague beliefs then it is OK to state them strongly. Joel seems to be afraid of strong belief.
T Young, I’ve never heard it stated better. Vague strong beliefs, and strong vague beliefs. Well said.
Emmanuel, your last reply didn’t address your statement to me earlier – “Remember Alan, there are 12 tribes of Israel….all are commanded by Christ to write their own bibles to testify that Jesus is the Christ and Savior of the world.” Where is that command given? The quote from John 10 is Jesus talking about His Kingdom being for the Gentiles and not just the Jews. But, it gives no validation for other books claiming to be from God being written.
Disagree with Mr. Osteen. Mormons are not Christians. I used to be one and can say that with 100% certainty. When I left the Mormon church, they “canceled” my baptism. I thought that was funny – how exactly do they do that?
It is so clear that Mormonism is not Christianity that it’s extremely disturbing that Osteen (who I think gets judged over-harshly) would miss this one. There is NO way that he’s this uninformed. I think he’s trying to make everybody happy…
…that’s not working, Joel…
You’re the one who is uninformed, not Osteen.
So, why not look at what the Bible has to say about whether or not Mormons are Christians. …We define the general word “cult” to mean a group of religious people who follow teachings and practices that deviate significantly from historic Christianity and the central doctrines of the Bible. Mormons deviate from historic Christian doctrine in many ways however the most significant concerns who they say Jesus is. He is not a prophet and he is not merely the Son of God, but rather He is God. Every Mormon believes that Jesus is the Son of God, but no Mormon believes Jesus is God. They do not believe that God became flesh and dwelt among us. Instead they actually believe that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers in the beginning and that Lucifer became corrupt and evil and Jesus is the Good Son. They do not believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One. They also believe that an angel gave their founding Father the tablets that the Book of Mormon was written on. Yet in the Bible in Gal 1:8 Apostle Paul tells us “ 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” God knew the day would come when we would be faced with this pressure to tolerate and accept as truth all the false religions. Mormonism is the largest Christian cult in the world, and God is gracious enough to make it clear to us, that Mormonism and Christianity are not in agreement. Joel Osteen should know these things. He is leading one of the largest churches in the US and he does not know that Mormons are not Christians! Very sad for those people and all who listened to him on this video. Mormons also believe the duty of a wife is to help prepare her husband for the afterlife, where he will have many wives and together they will populate a planet. They also baptize in proxy those who died without being baptized meaning they baptize people after they are already dead! It is a very strange religion that deviates in many ways from Christianity.
The title page of the Book of Mormon contains this passage:
“…And to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself to all nations…”
The doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is in 100% perfect harmony with the New Testament. It only deviates from your mistaken interpretation of the Bible.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is on pretty much obvious public record for the things they believe that totally disagree with the historical Christian faith as defined by any number of the creeds of the churches through the ages. Your statement is actually more disinformation than information it would seem.
And yes, I’ve got a copy of the Book of Mormon… I’ve read some if it… couldn’t stomach the whole thing…
The only places where Mormonism disagrees with historical Christianity are the areas in which historical Christianity apostatized from the original Church established by Christ. The creeds that were established from the 4th century onwards are extra-biblical, they have no support whatsoever in the Bible, and they are false. The doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is based on the New Testament, not on creeds created by uninspired clerics.
Your statement that you can’t stomach reading the Book of Mormon is just an idiotic and useless rhetorical bomb. The fact remains that the central theme of the whole of the subject matter in the Book of Mormon is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is the God of the whole earth.
If you can’t stomach that, then that is your problem, not mine.
Eichendorff, you want to talk about extra-biblical, sorry, the book of Mormon is categorically extra-biblical. Those “false” (to you) creeds are merely a theological expansion of the proto-creed from 1 Cor 15.
To be honest, I couldn’t stomach the Book of Mormon because of its obvious textual problems, its more than dubious origin, and the fact that it sounds like the “King-James-ian” musings of an uneducated person far more than it might sound like anything resembling Scripture. It is very hard for me to take seriously someone who truly believes them inspired. I try, but I just can’t… (the lack of original texts of any kind doesn’t help, as they are the least-supported sacred text I’ve ever been aware of.)
Historically, Christians have been defined by the uniqueness of Jesus as the only Son of the only God… and the authority and inspiration of Scripture, and by extension of those… adherence to the Creeds of the churches (especially Nicea, the Apostles’ creed, and the Athanasian creed – only one of those is from the 4th century on, btw). and for you to say the creeds are completely false most definitely shows your true colors in this matter.
And it remains that Jesus is not considered the unique son of God by Mormon theology. We won’t even get into baptizing the dead, secret rituals and practices like that.
You may, as a Mormon, call yourself a Christian, however that does not make you one any more than I calling myself a Buick become an automobile. Is Jesus the unique and only son of God, who is the unique and only God? Mormonism says that this is not the case.
*Those “false” (to you) creeds are merely a theological expansion of the proto-creed from 1 Cor 15.*
Baloney. That is just you projecting them onto the Bible. They aren’t there in the text. They never were and they never will be.
There is nothing dubious about the origin of the Book of Mormon. In fact the way the Bible was assembled is far more dubious than anything Joseph Smith came up with for the Book of Mormon.
As far as original texts are concerned, at least 11 other people witnessed and handled the plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated. None of them ever denied their testimonies, and they remain unimpeachable witnesses.
The LDS canon of scripture, which includes the King James version of the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price all affirm that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God. There’s really nothing else to say about it.
I have heard every argument against Mormonism. They are all just as absurd as they ever were. The dumbest one of all is the statement that Latter-day Saints are not Christians. You are as justified in saying that as saying the sun does not rise in the morning.
I am a Christian. I know it, and God knows it. No one can tell me otherwise. I thank God every day of my life that I have the privilege of belonging to the Church of Jesus Christ.
I’m not going to debate you any further on this forum. I’m educated enough in the manners and customs and beliefs of Mormonism to know where you are twisting things.
*I’m not going to debate you any further on this forum. I’m educated enough in the manners and customs and beliefs of Mormonism to know where you are twisting things.*
Translation: I have lost the argument because I really don’t know what I’m talking about so I am capitulating.
Fine.
One question. One question only. Do Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the UNIQUE Son of God, and that God is One and eternal, and that there never has been, nor will there ever be, another? According to what I have seen of Mormonism, the answer is no.
Latter-day Saints believe that God the Father is eternal and that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of the Father. The word “Only” implies “unique”, since no one else is included in this category. This perfectly straightforward statement is what the New Testament teaches and what Latter-day Saints believe. What is there about it you don’t understand?
Are you actually a Mormon? Or have they changed what they believe since my Mormon friends let me in on it? Is there not a stance that God was once a human being in your teachings? I distinctly recall that, and have confirmed it. Is it true?
What about the trinity?
For crying out loud. I’m tired of repeating myself. Go to http://www.mormon.org.
So rather than answer that question, you point me to your propaganda site. I’m sorry, but as long as Mormons hold “The Book of Mormon” to be sacred Scripture, you are going to be repeating yourself.
And we have history that is less biased than what comes from the Mormon church, which is, it certainly appears, mere propaganda that fails to answer questions like the last one I posed to you that you did not answer.
One thing I find utterly repellant about the evangelical version of Christianity is that it seems to produce stupid moronic numbskulls like you who spend so much of their time playing stupid moronic word games so they can trash other religions they don’t like. It must be some kind of perverse attempt at personal validation, similar to the methods the Pharisees used. Frankly, you disgust me.
I’m not going to play your word game. I have explained in a clear, straightforward way what Latter-day Saints believe about the eternal nature of God and his relation ship to Christ. If that isn’t enough for you, then you can lump it.
Okay, since you didn’t answer that question in a “clear and straightforward way” because, in fact, the Mormon church does NOT believe that God and Christ are unique and that God was once an exalted human (I believe that’s the wording I’ve heard Mormons say)…
and since you are playing apologetics games on what is really essentially an Evangelical Christian news web site and seem to be offended when we (or at least I) disagree with you that your religion is something it wants to claim to be… (Mormonism is not considered “Christian” by most, if not all, mainline and even non-mainline denominations which subscribe to the earliest creeds and tests of the faith of the Church)…
I, the moronic numbskull, will lump it…
Karen gets it wrong as well. For example, Mormons believe The Father, The Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are one exactly as John meant when he recorded that phraseology. They also believe Jesus Christ was and is God, who condescended to mortality, etc. etc.
Please, people. Try to keep your facts straight.
Does this mean that Mormons believe that God is one and that he has been and remains God from and to all eternity? Or do they believe he was once an exalted man who became God?
Why are Mormons hiding the answers to questions like these and dressing up their articles of faith to sound “Christian” when once one goes deeper, one finds that they believe things that are directly contrary to Scripture?
If Peter, Robert, or Karen were actually interested in keeping their facts straight, they would be reading the information on mormon.org instead of pooping their anti-Mormon bile on comment boards like this one.
I’m simply amazed at the inaccurate statements being made in these comments. I simply don’t have time to address them all, but it’s obvious that what is being written, for example, that Mormons deviate from Christian history or that we don’t believe that Jesus Christ was God. If you truly wish to understand The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints doctrine, read it for yourself. It’s all out there at Mormon.org. I will just address these two statements:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKQs50kAdo0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HrZVzFlkYI
Watch these clear statements of belief. They refute the majority of the false statements here.
A more complete refutation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7b0klLbQAI
Do the Mormons teach a different Gospel than the Gospel Paul preached? There lies your answer. (Gal. 1:6-10)
Do we as believers have any right to judge the man or woman for that matter that God has set in authority (Rom. 13:1) and in saying that Paul also gave us direction as to what we should do; “Pray for them; for kings (presidents) and ALL who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.” (1 Tim. 2:1-3)
If Joel O’Steen says Mormons are Christian but you say no, then the problem is not an argument of fact, it is an argument of definition. Mr. O’Steen is using the accepted dictionary definition of one who believes in Christ as our savior and in his teachings. You are using a narrow and parochial definition of Christian that seeks to be deliberately exclusive.
Just remember, some years ago when the traditional faiths were breaking up during the Reformation, and new churches were emerging that dismissed the authority of those traditional churches, in particular Catholicism for us in the West, that these new offshoots wanted to retain the Christian label themselves — by accepting the creeds of the 5th century regarding the nature of God rather than going to the Bible as the source for His nature.
THIS IS NOT CHRISTIAN!
Here the Mormon God Curses the USA Indians with Black skin for rebelling against the Mormon GOD–>
“. . . wherefore, as they were WHITE and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a SKIN of BLACKNESS to come upon them (Book of MORmON 2 Nephi 5:21).”
Here the MORMON GOD turns the USA INDIANS back WHITE Skinned because they REPENTED
“And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became WHITE like unto the Nephites” (Book of MORmON 3 Nephi 2:15).
BLAH Blah blah blah….zzzzzzz.
So much for the evangelicals & their critics regarding one of the US presidential candidates, one by one they are falling like dominoes. Christ did set up his church with Apostle Peter as the leader of the original Church of Jesus Christ. There are only 2 churches in the entire world who claim Apostolic Succession from Apostle Peter, Roman Catholicism and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Modern Christianity are all rooted from Roman Catholic including the Protestants. But I do recommend sometime in your lifetime to study the restoration claim of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or visit http://www.mormon.org for details.
http://www.ocregister.com/news/schuller-306881-church-board.html
Final point, it is the UN-CHRISTIAN RIGHT of GOP who cost the election of 2008. Mike Huckabee contributed to the mess we are in with his anti-LDS strategy during the GOP primary. John McCain had no chance against Obama even with Lady Gaga as VP. If UN-CHRISTIAN RIGHT want to do it again, here’s a piece of advice from a wise old Chinese philosopher who once said “Fool me once, shame on you…fool me twice, shame on me.”