Osteen: Romney IS a Christian
Posted by Todd Rhoades in Controversy on Jan 18th, 2012 | 39 commentsJoel Osteen is clarifying his position that Mitt Romney is, indeed, a Christian. Here’s his quote:
“What I see about Gov. Romney is that he says ‘I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He’s raised from the dead and he’s my savior.’ I see him as being a believer in Christ like me… That’s enough for me… There’s differences in all religion. I realize that Mormonism is different from Christianity, but you know what he’s a man of faith and values. And to me that’s strong.”
Here’s the video:
OK… so what do YOU think?
When someone says ‘I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He’s raised from the dead and he’s my savior,’ is that enough?
If they’re mormon? If they use the NIV11? If they’re homosexual? If they’re catholic? If they get drunk? If they don’t believe in hell? If they are living with their girlfriend? If they’re obese? What if they don’t ever attend church?
What exactly is the litmus test after the above statement?
I realize I’m agitating here… but I’m guessing that we all come down slightly differently on this. Let the theological debate begin… Leave your comments below…
39 Responses to “ “Osteen: Romney IS a Christian”
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What need is there for debate? Is the word not capable of speaking for and defending itself?
Osteen vouching for another person as a Christian leader doesn’t hold as a solid endowment in my book… His prominent preaching of Health and Wealth Gospel corrodes the truth of Scripture (to those who believe in his message.) Joel believes in Christ, sure… but he certainly doesn’t have a solid understanding of what that entails. He may know what the Bible says, but he doesn’t KNOW the Bible.
I have no beef with Romney, but Osteens endorsement (of Romney’s character) won’t make me more likely to vote for him, that’s for sure…
Nobody’s answering the question yet though.
Todd
Todd you asked, “When someone says ‘I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He’s raised from the dead and he’s my savior,’ is that enough?”
To answer your question bluntly, No! People may come to the conclusion that a verbal expression is enough to assure them of their own or of someone else’s salvation but it’s not.
Romans 10:9-10 says
9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.
If we read this scripture alone then we may think that if I say ‘I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He’s raised from the dead and he’s my savior,’ then I’m covered but the Bible has a lot to say about empty words.
Jesus is Matthew 15:8 referenced Isaiah 29:13 which said “These people say they are mine. They honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.”
If there is no evidence in our life that God has made our bodies his dwelling place but yet we are assured that we are saved, we’re mistaken. Faith in Jesus Christ is more than just a profession of a belief; it is a life altering transformation that is born out of a God given revelation of who we are and the supremacy of Christ as King. “So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless” James 2:17.
Face it. Osteen is a practicing Universalist. His true colors have shown through since he answered Larry King’s question, “is Jesus the only way to heaven?” a few years ago.
To answer the question regarding Mormons being Christian you have to factor in that their definition of Jesus is not biblical. They deny the deity of Christ…so…”Jesus” does not mean the same thing to a Mormon that it does to a true Christian.
I wonder if the candidate in question had been Muslim, would Mr. Osteen have gone to great lengths to explain to the itching ears of America how “Allah” is the same as the God of the Bible? I’ll bet that he would.
NO it is not ever enuff. The CHRISTian believes that JESUS IS GOD and the Mormom church does not teach that. If Mr. Romney believes it, he is not then a Mormon really. All the other is good and right, gotta believe that JESUS is GOD, and the other referenced and that HE is comming back. Lots of ppl believe that JESUS is GOD’s son, only not GOD HIMSELF. did I answer it. They believe alot of not right things, many of them especially odd too
This may be nit picking but…if Mormonism is different from Christianity, then Mormonism is not christianity.. So how can a Mormon be a Christian?
angela nailed it — it is literally impossible for a mormon to be a believer – the God they worship is not our God — their Jesus is not our Jesus – their Spirit is not our Spirit — mormonism was started by a mentally ill man who stole much of his written work from the Masons & the King James Bible – everything about mormonism is a fraud – Joseph Smith was killed in a gunfight in a jail where he himself shot two people before he was shot – among all the theological issues is polygamy / in the Mormon bible the use of beating niggers / beating your wife / beating your kids — this was all sanitized out of their writings in the early 70s
ergo – one cannot receive something that is a fraud
I can photocopy a $100 dollar bill but it is not the real thing
I struggle to believe more & more that Osteen is not a universalist – which is a bummer because I actually like him
It comes down to believing in Jesus Christ as the son of God, SECOND PERSON OF THE TRINITY, that he was crucified as the atonemtent for our sins and that he raised again on third day and defeated death, hell and the grave forever, as it is written about Him in Scripture.
Sure Mormons believe he is the son of God, but they also believe Satan is the son of God as well and a bunch of other crazy stuff.
This just shows Osteen’s lack of concern for the true gospel of salvation to man.
Todd,
It really doesn’t matter what I think, or Joel Osteen, or anyone else. The question is the condition of Romney’s heart – and God knows it. That’s what matters. I believe the litmus test is clear in the Bible. But we have put other conditions on salvation – some you’ve mentioned. Last time I checked, we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God. If there are conditions other than confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, then we’re all doomed. Such is grace.
It would be enough if their particular tribe didn’t have a rider on the statement defining “Son of God” as a created being really no different than you or I, the brother of Lucifer, from the planet Kolob, etc… The other issues, while important, don’t pre-bake in a different Jesus and a different Gospel by subtly redefining the terms.
Who are we to judge the heart? If someone makes the claim that they are a believer–in this case he even said “He’s my savior”, it is not for us to judge them. We can observe the “fruit” in their lives because Christians will bear the fruit of the spirit. However, even Christians have sin in their lives and God deals with that individually. When we turn our lives over to God, it doesn’t immediately fix all those broken elements in our lives. And Catholic? I’m not Catholic, but I have plenty of friends who are and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they have a true relationship with Jesus. Why they choose to hang on to some of those ritualistic ideas, I don’t know, but it doesn’t make them any less “Christian.” I have young adult children in my household, several of which do things that would be most displeasing to God, but they aren’t any less of Christian (as far as if they were to die they would go to heaven) than I am. Would they be electable to an office where their deeds are scrutinized, no. So let us look at these candidates, see what they’ve done, where they spend their time and money, and from that we can deduce their gods.
I agree. Well said.
God will ultimately judge hearts, but we are also called to accountable for the fruits of faith – our actions. The Morman church is clearly not Christian for many reasons, including the worship of false gods. Romney proclaims fellowship with this belief, and supports this belief with his money. He is passing along this false belief to his family, and reinforcing this belief to his friends. Is Romney a Christian? I believe these actions speak for that answer.
That said, will I only vote for a Christian? No. Governmental leaders are put in that position by God, and I am obligated to support and respect them.
There’s a huge difference between judging and being judgemental. God has given us the plumb-line of Scripture by which to judge EVERYTHING.
As Chritians, there is a duty to discern and assess anything and anyone who claims to be Christian or of Christ.
Whether it’s gut feelings or if people are really nice or whether say this or that is neither here nor there. What matters is ‘what does Scripture say on this matter?’
So in answer to the question ‘who are we to judge?’ I would have to say that you have a wrong view of Scripture and of God. When Paul preached in Berea, they went away, read their Bibles and checked the guy out.
Not withstanding that Osteen is a simpleton when it comes to handling the Word of God correctly, it still behoves the rest of us to make a judgement call on what he and Romney are saying, even more so as they are both high-profile, public figures speaking in the public arena.
Osteen by his own admission has been too lazy to actually find out what Mormons believe, ergo he is going with the lowest common denominator when he says that he thinks they’re Christians.
Words only are clearly not enough evidence that someone is saved. Jesus said in the Gospels that some will say to him ‘we did this or that in your name Lord’ to which he say he’ll reply ‘Depart- I never knew you’
Yes, there needs to be verbal confession, but there also needs to be heart transformation, visible evidence of a life given to Christ, fruit and perseverance. Followers of Christ do the things he commands and live by the Word and the Spirit.
At the end of the day, when someone says they’re a follower of Christ, ask ‘Which one?’. The Jesus of the Mormons, of the JW’s, of the Christadelphians and even the Muslims is not the Jesus of the Bible.
Romey’s Christ is not the Christian Christ and this is what Osteen has thus far been too unconcerned about to go and find out the facts.
There are people who make mental assent to all the right things who may not be actually regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
There are people who are regenerated by the Holy Spirit who make mental assent to many of the wrong things.
I think in Evangelical circles… too often our understanding of the word “believe” in the 21st century is pretty much intellectual, and I think 2000 years ago it was very holistic.
Therein lies the problem.
There are, imho, people who are very wrong about theology and sexuality and other things who are clearly going to spend eternity with God.
I also am becoming convinced that there might be people (I hope far fewer) who would make a list of all the right things to believe who are far from God’s heart because of their own unregenerate hearts.
So, Todd, my answer is that I don’t know.
I think of Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
A simple reading of this would say both these guys are saved. Now we have to be careful here, God gets to determine who is saved and isn’t. We get to separate right and wrong theology, we are to always be discriminating in terms of gospel doctrine, we have to test all things, but people’s eternal destinations are left to God’s judgment.
For me the key word in the above verse is “confess”, the Greek is homologēsēs, that breaks down into “same” + “profession.” This is saying you say, confess, profess the same things about Jesus as God has revealed You believe the same truths about Jesus as God has made evident.
With that in mind I would get pretty squeamish about endorsing either Romney or Olsen’s understanding of the Gospel. I don’t think it disqualifies Romney as a Presidential candidate (seriously there aren’t enough religious morals folks serving in government). But in terms of Jesus centered gospel preaching they both seem to be seriously off from orthodoxy-that is agreeing with the Biblical revelation of who Jesus is. They both would probably say they believe Jesus is Savior, but when you start to dissect what that means to them, it doesn’t line up with what the Bible and historical Christianity states. Same words, different meanings. So they can confess Jesus, but only God can read their hearts and judge if they believe and receive Jesus as Lord. Based on their own confessed beliefs about Jesus, I’m comfortable disagreeing with them vigorously on doctrine but unwilling to be the final judge on the destination of their souls or what lies in their hearts.
I sit with people all the time who have created their own version of what is “good enough” for God. They pray so that proves they are right. The have good intentions and that proves they are right. They attend church and that’s good enough.
Fact is when Peter came up with his own version of what Jesus should do when Jesus announced (Matt. 16) that he would die and Jesus said, “get behind me satan.” Peter had his own version of what Jesus should be about, it was mans version, but it wasn’t God’s version.
John 1:12-14 Jesus has called us not to just confess his Lordship -accept him – and say a “magic” salvation prayer – but to believe. Believing rocks our world, changes our core values, sets us in a new direction with new directions. When you believe you have something that becomes a life changing conviction that drives every action and decision. Then John adds we “become children of God.” We become something other than we were. And we keep becoming.
I think that those are some of the basics of a true conversion experience. Man’s version of this is diluted and insufficient.
The Jesus of the Mormons is not the Jesus of Christianity…neither is the God of Mormonism the God of Christianity or Judaism. Mormons are no more montheistic than any pagan religion, because their God was once man like you and me and earned his way to godhood. Therefore any good Mormon can be God too. If that is true then there are many gods over many planets, populating them along with their “celestial wives” with “spirit babies”.
What if Mitt Romney were to hold a press conference and say, “I want to be your President, but that isn’t really my ambition. I want to be more than that. You see, one day I aspire to be God. That is what my religion teaches me and that is what I am striving for. I will be President for a while, but I will be God forever.” If he were to say that, everyone would think he was a nut case. Yet that is what every good Mormon is aspiring to. Maybe Mitt, like so many others, is just deceived and really doesn’t know what the church believes deep down. Very possible, since so many Christians don’t really know what the Bible teaches either.
Steve, you said exactly what I was thinking.
It’s not enough to say “I believe in Jesus” if the Jesus you believe in isn’t the Jesus of the Bible. That’s why there was all this big controversy in the second, third, and forth centuries – when they had those councils to determine if so-and-so’s definition of Jesus was correct… or heretical.
+1 to Steve & Paul S.
The litmus test of real Christianity is your life and actions . .. what the Bible calls “fruit”. If your life and actions don’t match your rhetoric, you don’t pass. Saying I believe in Jesus Christ is a start …. now live in obedience to the Word of God! After all, the Bible says, “the devils believe…and tremble…” The real question of the day is “Can you truly be Christian in all the Biblical sense, and continue to associate with a church that doesn’t truly believe the Bible??”
First, a politician’s profession of faith means exactly nothing. There plenty of faithful Christians who would make terrible presidents, and plenty of non-Christians that could be great leaders of our government.
Next, I would +1 many of the comments here about reserving judgment for God. I don’t really need to know with certainty if someone belongs to Jesus or not, but I do need to know if I can trust someone with the heart-level issues in my life.
How do you know if you can trust someone with the heart-level issues in your life? Talk to them, listen to them, spend time with them and watch for Jesus to shine through their words and deeds.
If a Hindu friend lives a life of charity and wisdom and claims Jesus as Savior and Lord but also worships Hindu Gods, then I probably shouldn’t trust that person as much as I might trust a sold-out Christ-follower.
I have no problem with Romney. He seems like a good guy that might be good for America as the next President. However, to say that he is a Christian just like anyone else that believes in the Scriptures is a gross assumption. Mormons do not believe in the Christ of Scripture. Their Jesus is one who was once a fallen man who exalted himself to the status of the divine. They he is the brother of Satan and Satan rebelled because God chose the salvation plan of Jesus over his. They deny the Trinity and believe we can all become gods oneday just like God did at one time. According to Mormon theology the birth of Jesus was possible through God having sex with Mary thus denying the virgin birth and taking a page out of pagan mythology. So, based on those teachings of Mormonism and if Romney adheres to those teachings, then he is the victim of false teaching and needs to be shown the truth of the real Jesus of Scripture not the Book of Mormon.
I could write a lengthy response… but I won’t, since I rarely find myself agreeing w/ Joel on much. However, I think James 2:19 can be applied in this instance.
Maybe the more interesting question is, Is JO actually a Christian?”
Agreed – a watered down version with so much grace implied that the truth has become buried. Afraid of making “waves” with the truth, time and time again JO has had the opportunity to tell it like it is and instead tells it like it might be.
Apostle Paul nailed it (and Mormonism’s demonic “angel” Moroni who supposedly appeared to false prophet Joseph Smith and started the false religion of Mormonism with it’s blasphemously false Jesus): Gal. 1:6-9 “6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
Joel is monumentally deceived if he thinks anyone calling the false Jesus of Mormonism “savior” is really a Christian.
The other nasty danger with having a Mormon president (or vice president) is that false prophet Joseph Smith (who had a rap sheet a mile long) hated the United States and wanted to take it over. Mormons have been waiting since Smith’s time to do just that during a time of turmoil in the US. That is why Mormons are supposed to have a gun, ammunition, and a year’s supply of food in every household.
+1 Well said!
Ahh yes… for those above bigotry cast the first stone… How many people would say some of the stuff they’ve said here on Todd’s website to a friend (or friend’s family) to their face. How many “Christians” have come before and led a Christlike example from the Presidential office.. seriously, how many? Were all of our founding fathers Christians?
It’s sad and unfortunate that while we may/may not disagree with Gov Romney’s view of Christianity that it somehow means he’s incapable of being a good leader yet the same people can be happy that “at least Clinton.. and Obama.. etc is a Christian” yet leads the country down a very un-Christianlike path.
Being a Christian isn’t a qualifier for President nor should it be. Would it be ideal? A true Bible-believing Christian? Absolutely. But I’ll take an atheist or agnostic conservative/constitutionalist/republican who has more in common with my values (prolife, economical, freedoms, etc) than a “Christian” who puts values to the side for the sake of political advancement.
As far as Olsteen goes, I think an endorsement from him for any candidate is probably a detriment to that candidate, not a positive. Who knows.
I believe in Jesus, but before he came to earth he was a spirit child that was created by his daddy and one of his thousands of goddesses. His daddy god used to be a mere human, but became god of this planet by being a good mormon. Great, great, great grandaddy god is my favorite. I like the smell of his pipe tobacco.
http://youtu.be/n3BqLZ8UoZk
you guys have hashed this over sufficiently but I want to give KUDOs to Angela for her clever observation. It made me smile and…. I think she has a valid point. Good job
Sounds to me like we are seeing another fulfillment of Judges 17:6b “…but every man did what was right in his own eyes.”
I’m thinkin’ that there’s a deeper question. It’s not about who you recognize, it’s who you follow. It’s a deeper question and in typical political skill, and as anyone in a race for the White House can do, can make a statement like this and really answer no questions. Just my opinion.
My first thought was this is why seminary and theological training is so important! Let me say that I am voting for Romney. I am voting for a Commander in Chief not a pope. American is a Republic not a theocracy. I want a president with a good moral compass and I wish Romney was a not a Mormon but it will not change my vote.
Secondly, I have worked with Joel and Victoria and have sat at their dining room table planning out a campaign to raise funds for the Compact Center. They are well meaning, serious people. Unlike many at their level that I have met I do believe in their sincerity even as I disagree with many of their doctrinal points. I want to think that Joel will think twice about this comment. Having to answer questions on the spur of the moment on National TV is tough. But I cringe at his answer. I am reminded that Jesus said, “Not everyone who says Lord, Lord, will enter into the Kingdom.”
Here’s a hypothetical conversation between me and Mitt (or any other Mormon)….
Scott: Hey Mitt, is Jesus God?
Mitt: No.
End of debate?
I agree with Mark Brooks comments above… well said…
A few other thoughts came to mind…
1) How would you all (especially you pastors on here) feel if a Mormon person stumbled across this blog entry via Google and saw these comments from “non-judgemental evangelical Christians”? The way you all have painted them and their faith system? How would that make them feel? Think they’d be more or less open to you teaching them Biblical truths and where their faith doesn’t line up with ours?
2) Would you feel just as comfortable saying these types of things to non-believers? That is to say, it seems like people will make exceptions for how they talk about non-Christians yet feel perfectly comfortable being critical of Mormons (who, ironically, you all would label as non-Christian).
All to say.. How does saying this really negative stuff about Mormons, Mitt, etc (true and untrue) help your witness? What does that say about you? Would Jesus want you on here blasting people of other faiths? I think therein lies your real theological debate. Of which I won’t take part. As someone earlier said, only God knows the heart of a man.
I think the analogy should go something like this: Person A says, “”I know Mike Smith.” Person B says, “I know Mike Smith too!” Person A says, “Mike Smith has two eyes.” Person B says, “Mike Smith DOES have two eyes. We’re talking about the same Mike Smith.” person A then says, “Mike Smith has brown hair.” Person B says, “No, Mike Smith has blond hair.”
If you keep going long enough and even though you use the same names and some same basic descriptors, you will begin to uncover very different Mike Smiths.
If you keep asking descriptive questions long enough with a Mormon, you will find that you are talking about different Jesus Christs.
The ‘litmus test’ is a life lived that either does or does not support the statement.