Piper: God Gave Christianity a “Masculine Feel”
Posted by Todd Rhoades in Leadership on Feb 1st, 2012 | 21 commentsGod’s intention for Christianity is for it to have a “masculine feel”.
Those are the words of John Piper this week.
And I’m sure they are fightin’ words for many. But not for me.
Women in ministry has been and is continuing to be a huge issue for many in the body of Christ.
In fact, I think the heat has really gone up a notch or two in the past couple years.
I’m not sure why, other than people continue to make it one of their high horses.
Those opposed to women in any kind of ministry leadership roles are digging in their heels.
But so are a good number of women (and men) that think that the Bible has something different to say about church leadership roles for women.
Theologians… prominent ones at that… come down on different sides of the issue today. And they have for generations.
People who are much smarter than me, who have studied original languages and have degrees I can’t even pronounce, disagree on this.
The internet has helped the argument along.
Before, if you did or didn’t want a woman in leadership in your church, it was purely a local church issue. But now, you open yourself up to criticism all across the country by your local decision on this. And those that have an opinion and a platform, like John Piper, speak into the issue with a national, and really world-wide forum.
And the same is true on the other side.
I have a definite view of women in ministry. I’m not sure that it’s important that I declare. I’m not afraid to (at all)… I’m just not sure if that is something all that important.
And while I may agree or disagree (see… I haven’t told you my stance), I’m not sure that saying things like God is ‘King not Queen, your father not your mother’, is really helpful to the debate.
Because when you specifically speak about a ‘masculine’ gospel, you really do three things:
1. You get a hearty AMEN from those who agree
2. You infuriate those who you disagree with
3. You create an issue that, in the big scheme of things, diverts our attention from the work at hand.
Bottom line for me… (and it could just be the mood I’m in this morning)… the older I get, the more weary I get of ‘rallying the base’. Many older than me do this on a regular basis. They go for the big amen.
Truth is… if you’re any kind of a leader, your base is already with you. You don’t need our amens. Let’s move on.
I really like John Piper… I think he’s a guy who really loves Jesus. He’s a great leader. But on things like this, I’m afraid it will divide more than it will unite.
Is that a bad thing?
Would love your thoughts.
21 Responses to “ “Piper: God Gave Christianity a “Masculine Feel””
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Todd,
You make a great point. I think one of the reasons why it’s such a hot issue is that we are confused as a culture when it comes to roles of men and women in the home and the church. My particular view is complementarianism. No matter the view, it is going to be divisive. My view angers feminists and egalitarians alike. I do feel that there is a general lack of male leadership in the church as a whole, which in my view leads to women unhealthily “picking up the slack.” Also, there has been a lot of abuse of power by men which has created a negative view towards any view that puts men in prominent leadership. Maybe its just that men need to lead well so that both men and women can lead and serve well.
Brother, that is right on. Women are filling the leadership vacuum created by men’s abdication of of our scriptural duty to lead. Who are we then to complain about them doing it. We need to spend more time training and exhorting men to lead so that women don’t have to. Aye!
This is obviously a complex issue. See the bottom for my thoughts on two potential “biases” on my observations to come.
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My personal, feet-on-the-ground experience makes me agree with Dave. (I spend a good portion of my work time visiting churches of Protestant persuasion, whatever their flavor.)
When I first started, I was surprised not by the presence of women in the pastorate, but by the *ratio* of female to male preachers in the United Methodist Church (UMC). My best guess at that ratio (again, by actually setting foot on the campuses of these churches and talking with them) is 3F : 1M. Women definitely outnumber the men as leaders of the UMC churches I visit.
Having spoken with many of these women, I find that they love God, have spent time in his word, and truly desire to see it preached.
The conclusion I have come to is this: It is not that the women who have taken up the mantle of pastor are more spiritual than the women in my church. It is that the *men* are so lacking in spiritual development and leadership that like Barak, it is *to their shame* that God has filled their post with a fistful of Deborahs.
My prayer for the church is that God would lift up some faithful men in their presence.
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Two potential impacts:
1)The demographics might be affected by the fact that my feet are on the ground in the San Francisco Bay Area, a central battleground for women’s rights in all area (secular as well as religious). If I were in Omaha, NE, the male / female distribution might be very different.
2)Self-selection bias: This has a likely impact. If a woman wants to be a pastor, there are (currently) very few places to go. She would need to find a local congregation willing to accept her. Denominations that have openly welcomed female preachers are the logical jumping off point for them to find a pulpit.
So for me, the logical construct of “Where A, then B” looks like this: WHERE the denomination welcomes women pastors, THEN that is where they will look for positions first. This would lead to a natural influx of women pastors, and may account for the apparent imbalance.
I’m an Episcopalian in Charlotte, NC. Two of five of our pastors are female. Most of my mainline brethren are likewise with females. My church is pretty large (5k) with very little male-lay leadership. Like a bunch of beaten-down tomcats at Thanksgiving we say “yes dear” to whatever, as long as they serve us turkey and let us watch football. Our sermons are about trees and weather anomalies and our walls are bedecked with quilts, tapestries and baubles. We talk about soul care a lot and roll around like a bunch of dogs with buckets on our heads ready to lick each others’ half-healed wounds. If we don’t get the men to step up and lead soon we’ll be so shrunken and effiminate that we’ll all be wearing the same mauve pantsuits.
Todd,
I’m glad you bring this up. With the Driscoll stuff, this (and other) Piper stuff, I don’t know how to handle it… well. Here’s my contribution to the discussion. It’s just a perspective on the issues.
The High Horse
It’s a high horse because real people are being excluded on the basis of their genitalia and the giftings from God are being ignored and subsumed under an odd desire for men to retain their power in the church.
Here’s a thought experiment: Replace “masculine” with “white” in Piper’s statement. If someone with a high level of influence said something like that, we’d be up in arms about it, pushing back because it is not a mere theological quibble (like Calvinism/Arminianism), but a moral one. Actual exclusion of actual people matters.
It’s personal to me (I try to admit my biases, but it is also a real-life example) because my wife is one of those excluded and has been excluded by people over whom Piper has influence.
New Communication Mediums
And you’re right, new communication mediums drastically alter relationships. No longer is the local church, a toe, if you will, as isolated from the rest of the Body of Christ. Now that people’s communication and influence flows more freely, there is also a responsibility to engage with those people who have influence.
The Church is messy. I’m not saying people who disagree have license to say whatever, wisdom and love need to temper all disputes. But it is a real and present issue.
At least in my best guess.
Thanks for your response, Todd. I don’t like the “masculine feel” reasoning. And you have rightly pointed out that folks on both sides of the issue are digging in their heels on the matter. As a woman in ministry, I don’t have time to dig in my heels. I’m too busy doing what I was called by God to do.
I just don’t care much anymore and while others may feel called to defend my authority as a woman to preach, I don’t believe defending it is my calling.
Telling the world about Jesus, however is. That for me is the main thing and I would like to see the main thing STAY the main thing.
Now there’s a leader I can follow!!!! Good focus MG!!!!
I think God takes any person willing to allow Him to lead them and places them in the role that He needs in His time… I really don’t think he’s looking for a penis to get the job done!
Like!
Really appreciated this, Todd: Truth is… if you’re any kind of a leader, your base is already with you. You don’t need our amens. Let’s move on.
I want to say AMEN, but now I don’t know what to say!
I agree, Dennis! MG I will work side by side with you in this kingdom work!
I’ve been reading a lot about this issue this week and you are right….there is so much controversy and differing opinions out there… enough to make your head spin! The reason it means so much to me though is because well….I’m a woman. It doesn’t really change things so much…. if you are a man. I want truth… and when the truth could literally change the way women in ministry are received and embraced, it becomes very important. I don’t just want this just for me but for my daughters and their daughters and so on down the generations. But I love what Missional Girl says….she is just doing what she has been gifted to do. Sometimes as women we can get so caught up in the controversy that we forget to just do what we are called to do.
It is helpful to remember what Piper means when he says masculinity is usually not at all what people who oppose his view argue against.
From the original article:
Piper acknowledged that speaking about a primarily male-led Christian community can attract controversy. However, he outlined what he sees as God’s plan in regards to the relationship between men and women.
“He does not intend for women to languish or be frustrated or in any way suffer or fall short of full and lasting joy in this masculine Christianity,” he explained. “From which I infer that the fullest flourishing of women and men takes place in churches and families that have this masculine feel.”
“That is liable to serious misunderstanding and serious abuse since there are views of masculinity which would make such a perspective repulsive. So, there is more that needs to be said,” the influential pastor continued.
“When I say masculine Christianity or masculine ministry or Christianity with a masculine feel, here’s what I mean: Theology and church and mission are marked by an overarching godly male leadership in the spirit of Christ with an ethos of tender-hearted strength, contrite courage, risk-taking decisiveness, and readiness to sacrifice for the sake of leading and protecting and providing for the community. All of which is possible only through the death and resurrection of Jesus.”
“It’s the feel of a great, majestic God who is by His redeeming work in Christ inclining men to humble Christ-exalting initiatives and inclining women to come alongside those men with joyful support, intelligent helpfulness, and fruitful partnership in the work.”
True male masculinity is courageous enough to include women in all ministry and leadership of the church. Its immature 3rd grade boys who are so frightened by women that they make a secret club house and hang a sign “no girls allowed”.
Its amazing how many frightened 3rd grade boys are hiding in ministry behind Jesus.
This Sunday while you are sitting in church listening to that guy up front who claims to be your spiritual leader, ask yourself, is he a courageous man or a frightened 3rd grade boy? Does he encourage women to participate or is he afraid of them?
If you don’t see a courageous man who is not afraid to include women then get up and leave that church. Do it right then, right in the middle of the sermon, and stop wasting your time on money on them!
First, no one needs permission to obey god and minister to others.
Second, I’m not convinced that the activities women are typically excluded from can even be called ministry. Typically women are excluded from managing Christian 501c3 organizations, delivering talks to gender-mixed groups of people, and supervising male leaders of programs and projects.
None of these activities are required for making disciples. I really can’t understand why a woman would be interested in that kind of service anyway.
What I have yet to see in the debate on this site or others that I’ve been scanning since Piper’s comments hit the web like the proverbial fan: 1 Timothy 2.12. No one’s addressed it, that I can see. If we’re to be faithful to Scripture, how do we explain & apply “I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man,” I wonder?
I was at the DG conference when Piper made these remarks and I gladly cheered his truth telling. Todd, you wrote, “But on things like this, I’m afraid it will divide more than it will unite.” So what if it divides as long it is Scripturally grounded. Don’t get squishy because John ruffled the sensibilities of the egalitarian majority of the American culture and church. Since the sixties their acolytes have taken on the coloration of pop culture to be relevant, tolerant and fashionable. Stand firm in behalf of a masculine gospel Bro. The “remnant” is called to be the counterculture especially when it shows up in our churches. It can be exalting to belong to a church that is 550 years behind the times and sublimely indifferent to fashion; it is mortifying to belong to a church that is five minutes behind the times, huffing and puffing to catch up.
How can one not think that the Bible has a masculine feel to it? It is so obvious. Are we afraid to let God be who God is?
Being a Christian man doesn’t mean I’m more important or more valuable than a Christian woman. Hardly. There are simply roles that God has instituted in the church leadership, marriage, and home life. Period.
The greatest leader is the one who is the greatest servant. Male or female.
Todd,
I like that you understand that this is more of a divisive issue than it is something that Piper, who is very popular with a of young Christians, can use to build the Body up. I also enjoyed your post about the NIV 2011 edition. I am concerned about some Christian organizations having fear of using gender neutral language in places that it can be used without changing doctrine.
I’m a Bible believing leader… the first lesson I learned in seminary is not to add to or subtract from God’s Word… many today are operating in the grey area and ignoring the area that speaks plainly… if we’re going to be a Church that’s governed by God’s Word… they we can’t opperate in feelings or our thoughts… we must operate in accordance to God’s Word… God’s Word never changes regardless of the times… as I preach in the congregation where I’m currently serving… if we can’t provide Scripture to validate our practices… then we shouldn’t be doing it…
Two things:
1) The male only ministry line is completely arbitrary. I don’t know of any churches who refuse to let women sing, give testimony, or serve on committees. Women do all these things but are not “officially” given titles because the bible says so? For example, my in laws church holds to the traditional position, but has women on the pastor’s leadership team. My home church is also traditional, but hired a woman youth pastor. However, instead of pastor, they called her a youth director. Pharisee city if you ask me.
2) Whatever you believe, no one can deny the apostle Paul had several close women team members who taught scripture and whose contributions he deemed irreplaceable. How many men in ministry can say the same? Not many.